Friendship, Fear, and the NYC Marathon (Chelsey Hogan & Claire Gagliano) | Ep. 24

Hey, Claire. Hey, Chelsea. How are you doing? Pretty good. First day on the pod. First day of the pod. Being a co-host. I know. Never been on a podcast before, so lots of different emotions. I feel afraid. I feel excited, which I guess is how you approach most new opportunities in your life. You just got to get up on the horse, I guess. Yeah. But you've been on a podcast before.

I have been on a podcast before, just once, but as a guest. But I think that today, we are reaching a new level of friendship. Oh, yeah. New experiences. New experience, but, you know, also vulnerability. Yeah, very true.

Looking at new things. Lights, camera, action. Honey. Into the sinews of your soul, but no pressure. The centers of my soul didn't know that my soul had musculature. Oh, it does, Chelsea. I know it does. Living, breathing, beating. All right, well, so for our listeners, if there are any out there, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, Chelsea?

Okay, where to start? My name is Chelsea Hogan. I am a licensed professional counselor. That is what I do for work, for my day job. I am a resident of No Joke in Hoboken. What is that? Uh, Hoboken is a city in New Jersey. Oh, okay. I thought you said you were, you're a resident of Hoboken, is what you said. I said resident of no-jokin' Hoboken. No-jokin'. Okay, I thought, I was like, oh, do you do comedy, too? Never knew that about you.

Just you wait. Oh, yeah. You're like, I do have a microphone in front of me, so who knows what's gonna happen. Heavy is the head that wears the crown. Yeah. Um, but other than that, um, I'm here today as a co-host on this podcast, and I'm interested to hear about you. Claire, tell us about you. Yay, so exciting. Let's see. Claire Galeano here, resident of Manhattan.

Inside the city limit, I do pay that additional city tax. Keeps, yeah. I don't know. Sometimes I wonder if I should move to Hoboken just to save on that. I don't know what it is, like 7%, but it's a pretty hefty amount on top of New York state taxes. Constantly flirting with the idea of going across the river. I know. The river.

Bring your ox, hope it doesn't tip over. Let's see. I work in IT, corporate girl, digital transformation for a manufacturing company. They make airplanes. Unfortunately, they never let me fly them, so I have to find other ways to entertain myself, namely by just going out, exploring the city, love to travel.

Really heavily involved in, like, the young adult ministry and environment in New York, fun way to meet people, and it's how I keep myself busy. Love that. Yeah. But you also like to bake. You said this morning you baked bread. How was it getting over here?

It was really easy. God's hand was behind me the entire way. Usually, I struggle with public transportation, but today, not so much. I was just swiftly. Scurrying on in, but I did have a full morning. I decided that before I met up with you that I was going to be completely doable to go on a run.

Bowl of sourdough, and go from Hoboken to Brooklyn, and blow-dry my hair in between, so, you know. Hefty process. Yeah, we are in Brooklyn, by the way. Yeah, Brooklyn. So, yeah, Hoboken to Brooklyn, you have to go from, cross the East River, through Manhattan, wait, cross the Hudson, through Manhattan, cross the East River, hop into Brooklyn. So, yeah, hop, skip, and a jump, and then Living in Hoboken, there are trains that will take you into the city, but now there are also those big tunnels.

But isn't one of the trains going out of commission soon, and so... Yeah, the path is about to be taken off the board, but they are matching prices from the path, which is very economical. I think it's like $2 or $3, every which way, but they are matching prices by the ferry, and they are also incorporating some shuttle buses to help us get into the Big Apple. Oh, I love that. I feel like there's something romantic about taking a bus.

I hate taking the bus. Really? Yeah. Oh, no. Why? Our first fight. First. Loose. Oh, my gosh. So true. I forgot about, like, our whole history. Oh, a tale for another time. But, yeah, no, I hate taking the bus because I just, I hate unfamiliar things, and I'm very familiar with the path, and I can say the same thing about the ferry, except the ferry's fun. Yeah, the ferry, winding your hair. Yeah, now that it's more economical, I think that might be the choice.

Yeah. Well, actually, okay, since we brought it up, don't just want to skip over it. Should we dive into, like, how we know each other and our history a little bit? It could be, like, a fun redemption story. I feel like, as an adult, like, living in the city.

And we talked about the culture a little bit with Sean on the previous episode that he had hosted us on. It is hard to build community, and I feel like if you're not in a structure like school or university, or even in person at work, which a lot of us aren't anymore, it's hard to make friendships, and so you and I kind of met in like a, I don't know, unconventional way. We went to school together at the University of Dallas.

Yes. We weren't at the same year, so I guess we were just, yeah, two ships passing in the night, and then I think also our school was, did you experience that it was kind of clicky? Yeah, UD has that about it. They are, well, essentially what I think it is, is that it's a small school, and the social circles are kind of like, a little bit like kill or be killed.

Okay, ruthless. Okay, it is a Catholic school, so most people are also very nice, right? That's so true. That's so true. But I'm joking about the killer we killed, but, oh, just joking. But it is, you get fathered into things, like, you know, like, there's, like, friendships that, like, predate, like, you even being there at the school, because it's a... People's parents that went there. Yeah, like, it's a sender school, so there's, like, a huge alma mater, like, alumni community. Yeah.

So, even, like, now, like, a lot of my siblings go to UD, and, like, they are really close friends with a lot of, like, my best friends, little siblings, and cousins, and things like that. So, yeah. So, cliques naturally form. Yeah. Would be my long-winded answer. Yeah, for sure. And cliques are, like, conventional to school in general, so most people will go to, like, a big state school, and then they have their Greek life, which they taper into, and those...

Are more official cliques, I guess, or organizations that you joined, but, yeah, so I don't want to say it's a bad thing, but we weren't close, I guess. No. Yeah, no. We weren't close until the last year. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, when I...

Saw that you lived in the same city as me. And I truly, when I moved to New York, after living in Dallas for about, I lived in Fort Worth for a year, went to the University of Dallas for four years, and then did three years post-grad in Dallas. When I moved to New York, I truly knew only one person, and that was my roommate.

And she went to Notre Dame, so she had basically a big thriving community from Notre Dame, but I noticed a lot of the people in New York who come from like a big state school have so many state school friends that, I mean, you can only have so many friends in your day-to-day, but it was hard to break into, because obviously, I don't share that massive common experience that they have. Right. So, yeah, it's truly starting from scratch. So, kind of looking for people that share Similar values and everything.

I also feel like there's a tendency in New York where you meet people, and you meet so many people, and so many people are new to the city and really hungry for community, that you can kind of latch onto people too fast who might not.

Be the most aligned with who you are. Like, you hang out a couple times, and then they kind of, they're like, oh, do you want to do this activity? And you're like, nope, like, absolutely not. Like, that's not, like, my, that's not my scene. So, I think I saw that when you were there, I was like, this could be, I honestly talked to our mutual friend about this. I was like, this could be the Holy Spirit, like, bringing me Chelsea as a friend.

Place on your doorstep, be a dove. Yeah, so true. With a loaf of sourdough bread that you just baked. It's perfect. Yeah, loaves and the fishes. But I totally agree. I came from, so I was in Texas for a long bit. You were there kind of at similar timing. You left before I did. I moved back because I'm originally from New Jersey, and I was in like a small shore town for about like eight months. I got a winter rental. And just kind of get my bearings, and then I decided I wanted to, like, be closer to the city, and it was very similar on my side of things.

Like, I was like, I think that Claire gags. By the way, yeah, we need to adjust this. Sort of. Adjacently. Did not know that your last name was pronounced the way that it is. Well, let's hear it. Oh, yeah. You can do it. I'm a pro now, but I'll never forget it. But, yeah, I was like, I know that Claire Gags lives in the city. I honestly thought that I was going to, like, run into you, like, when I would be going to, like, events, because I was hungry for it, too.

Like, when I moved, like, home in the Shore Town area, like, I had my... Family, and everyone's really rich and deep in the faith and whatnot, so I had that community and that support, but when I moved out here, I have a close-knit group of friends that are more secular, so I was looking for it. I was hungry for it, so I was going to events and stuff that I heard of through some of the parishes in the city, and I thought I was going to run into you.

I thought I was just going to walk up on you, and then... At the same time that you were asking Lucy, our mutual friend, about it, I visited D.C., and she was just happening to be in the area as well, and I was asking her about it, and I had thought that you texted me because I was asking about you. That's so funny. We've been asking about each other. So cute. Yeah. Look at us. She's single. So cute.

You're like, yes, I am, and so are you. Perfect. Hit the town together. But yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, so then you brought me in, pulled me in under your wing, and introduced me to like a very flourishing young adult parish, St. Joe's, and I have met so many people through you that it's been such a beautiful process. Oh, that's so sweet. Yeah, I think one time I had, what was it? It must have been... Oh, I think it was, it wasn't my birthday party, but it was a party that we had in the spring, and we basically, it was the first ever party we had in our apartment, so we invited essentially everyone we knew, and then at the end of the night, you know how parties go, there's like 20 stragglers left, and one of my girlfriends, like, announced to the room, she was like, what do all of us have in common?

Like, we all know Claire, and like, we're all here because of her, and I was like, that's a beautiful thing to hear, like, around your birthday, but it is. It was just very interesting, like how I went from knowing one person to now knowing like a hundred, and I think, yeah, faith had so much to do with that, because there are so many activities you can do in New York, like you could go to art galleries, I'm sure there are lectures, there are different clubs you could go to, but I think just recurringly showing up where I already felt I had like a sense of Just belonging where I knew people were going to be open, just, like, open the doors to more and more opportunities because, yeah, there are so many different things going on here.

But, yeah, how was your experience, like, coming back to New Jersey where you had, like, grown up? It was pretty wild. In the best way. I had lived in Dallas, including college, for like about eight years, and I had gone to undergrad, grad school, and then I had started like my career there, and everything was just like so set, like so set in stone, like so stable. I worked with a private practice, like I had my own office, like I had my friend group, I had like everything going for me, but there was just something that...

That was kind of nudging at me to come back. I oftentimes describe it like I grew up in Jersey, moved to Texas, and then it was kind of like a double life. I felt like I was living in two places and wanted more of that continuity, but my roots were getting more...

Deep, or deeper in Texas than they were in Jersey, and I was feeling uncomfortable with that, so decided to make the plunge and come back home and kind of start over in a lot of ways, and that was scary, but it was also really good, and it caused me to grow a lot and change a lot, and as we're talking about now, meet a lot of new people.

Seek a lot of new opportunity, and see my faith grow a lot, and as a result of that, you know, blessed be the fall. You fall on your face, and you get back up, and you look at God, and you say, help me. Please. Oh, man. Yeah, it's so funny. Like, growing up in Georgia, I grew up in Georgia, then moved to Dallas for school, and then went to school there for a couple years, and then remained in Dallas. Eventually, my whole family moved to Dallas, so now I consider myself, like, Texan.

Texan adopted, if they still want me. Growing up in the South, I had, like, no exposure to New York and New Jersey as, like, these big cities, and I feel like Jersey gets, like, this reputation from, like, the Jersey Shore, the show. Oh, yeah. And then I also just pictured, like, oil and manufacturing, and then... Yeah, it's because of Newark. Oh, okay. That's because of EWR.

EWR. Newark Airport. Okay. I was like, is that a real... I know, it's an airport. I've lived here for two years. You're like, why do I feel unsafe when I hear that acronym? And I was like, EWR. Why am I stressed? Why am I looking at a clock? I typically go to LaGuardia, but yeah, New Jersey is just such an, I'm like a New Jersey apologist. It's like one of my favorite places.

The U.S. now. I'm like, it's beautiful. The houses all have, like, these farmhouse style. You have the beaches, which I still haven't gone to, but New York also has beautiful beaches. And, like, the encroaching trees, and the countryside, and, like, the horses you can see just, like, 30 minutes outside of the city is actually crazy. Yeah. Like, I've met people in New York who are like, I actually live on a farm in New Jersey. I just work in the city, and I was like, you have, and they're like, yeah, I have cows, and I was like, what?

Yeah. It's so crazy, because Like, the farms in Alabama, you'd have to drive, like, three hours to find a big city. Oh, wow, wow, wow. But, anyways, that was just my little spiel about... No, I mean, I love that. We can take all the help we can get. New Jersey actually paid me to say that. Or it wasn't me. Like, did you get checked by mail to being a New Jersey apologist?

Or just my friend? Well, you said something else I was going to reference. The New Jersey apologist of it all, I appreciate that effort because of the fact that it gets such a bad rap. I feel like in Texas more, I was like pushed on that a lot. Like, they were like New Jersey, like Smokestack City, basically, and I had to fight for my right. Yeah. So, thank you for spreading the word. Of course. Yeah, the first time I saw like a New Jersey beach, I like was mind blown.

I was like, what the heck? Come on down. You should come stay with me and my fam. Oh, yeah. Okay, so I guess now we veer somewhere else. Okay. Maybe we could talk about the new year. The new year? Yeah, what... Okay, yeah, let's do it.

How did you spend your new year, Claire? Oh, my new year, it was... Actually, really great. Went out in Chinatown to this place called Chinese Tuxedo. I love that. Really, really delicious food. I actually went there for my birthday. Oh. You need to go see the parades. Oh, yeah, for the Chinese New Year. Yeah, let's go do that. I think that's end of January. Okay. Yeah, it was just the year of the dragon. Okay, cool. Now, I think it's the year of the snake.

Wow. Yeah. Excited. I know, exciting. But yeah, delicious food, and then, super funny, there's a speakeasy downstairs. And one of our girlfriends was panicking the whole time, being like, how do we ask the waiter to get us downstairs, and getting very stressed. And I was like, I'm sure it'll be fine. I'm sure it'll be fine. And then before you know it, end of dinner rolls around, it's like 11, and the manager's going up to every table, would you like to go downstairs?

And he just walked us on down. And then we ring in the New Year there, but super great. I love going to Chinatown, I feel like. So many great experiences. The food is incredible. It is affordable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. What about you? What did you do?

I went to Newport and did a girls' trip, like a gals' trip. Girls' trip. Girly pop trip, and it was lovely. I have never been to Newport before. It is beautiful. Me either. I have never been to Rhode Island. It is strikingly beautiful.

What did we do? We had like a night dinner area of things that we were going to accomplish. It was like a Pinterest board sponsored trip. We did vision boards. Fulfill all your hopes and dreams. Like, it took five hours. There was five girls. Each girl did a presentation of her vision board, what she saw in her year to come. That's nice, though. No, it was super cathartic, very therapeutic. Also, so interesting to hear like... What people are desiring to happen within that year, because everyone's goals are just so different.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm, like, going on about things that are very faith-founded Catholic beliefs and a very secular friend group, and it's just, you know. People are like, what? Yeah, no, seriously, like, one of my best friends of, like, almost, like, 15 years now, like, came up to me later on and was like, what were you saying?

I was like, let's just talk about it another time. Bye. What else did we do? Oh, I did a polar plunge. Oh my gosh, that's crazy. Yeah, I plunged myself into the New England waters as a rite of passage for the new year. Was it the ocean? Were you in the ocean? Yeah, it was the ocean. Wow. Did you like sprint in from the shore? Yeah, and it was not conducive. Yeah, that's by water. It was so shallow, so low tide, and When I got in, like, when I pushed through and got to the point where I had to go under the water, like, I basically just had to collapse onto the ground in order to submerge my whole body.

So, I wouldn't recommend the polar plunge in Newport, per se, because I think that was just like that all the time. It would be nice to have, like, a launch pad with, like, immediate submersion. Yeah, like, even at the beaches, like, where I grew up, like, literally, like, you, like, walk, like, two, three feet into the ocean, you're waist deep. Like, no, I was... I reckon. Like a football field away? Yeah, literally. And then I just had to lay down.

You must be on a sandbar. Anyhow, I lost my breath. I literally couldn't breathe. I emerged from the water, and I could not breathe. Yeah, I thought my heart stopped, but my aura rang, so it was keeping on breathing. That's good. It came in handy. That's so interesting. Yeah, some people I know are having a polar plunge at Rockaway Beach, which is, I guess it's like 30 minutes on the subway.

Very cool. You could take a subway to the beach. Did not know that. I didn't know that either. You could take the subway or the ferry. Actually, that was where the last... Does the L go there? Because it said that on the… Rockaway, yeah, if it says that. Wow. Here we go. Should we go? Yeah. I mean, I go in the summer. When we wrap? Yeah. Polar plunge? Well, okay. Yeah, that is exactly what I was going to say. Some people are having a polar plunge on… I think it is technically the last day of the Christmas season is the baptism of the Lord, and so they are going to do a polar plunge in commemoration, and I said, that sounds great.

I will not be doing it. I mean, I could be persuaded. Yeah. Persuade. Persuaded. Persuaded. I think there are health benefits. I mean, that was the whole thing. There's some people who do, yeah, cold baths every day. Yeah, the Norwegians, apparently. Yeah, or in Japan, they had, I just went to Japan in October with some girlfriends, and they have these massive bathhouses, which have, like, three different types of, like, mineral pools.

Some are warm, some are lukewarm, and then they have, like, polar plunge pools, where you can just submerge, and then they have saunas, so you can just rotate. See, like, that seems, like, more... Like, the instant, like, submersion? Probably better. Yeah, a little bit deeper. Yeah, I think that there was just, like, a lot of panic going on when I was running. That sounds so fun, though. Yeah, it was fun. I feel like sometimes life is so mundane, you have to do something to, like, make it exciting.

Shock your system? Exactly. Yeah, not jump out of a plane, but, like, close. What's your opinion on that, jumping out of planes? I don't know. I feel like when I was younger, if I'm so old, whatever, when I was more impulsive, I used to be very impulsive, and I feel like as I get older and have more life experience and experience more suffering, I'm less impulsive. I would have just done it. And then now, I live on, like, the 17th floor of a building, and it's an, I think it's a pre-war building, but it's, like, very nice, nicely refurbished, and I'm thankful to even have an elevator, but it will drop every so often floors.

Like, you'll be on the 12th floor, and your stomach will, like, fly up to the roof of your mouth, and you'll be like, the elevator just dropped, or sometimes it'll drop, and it won't be flush. So, there'll be like an inch that you step up. Integral information. So, well, so now I can't get on the elevator without, sometimes if I'm in there by myself, I'm praying out loud, out loud, like, God help me, God save me, please give me up, like, every single time.

How many times? It's better if you don't know. Have I written? No, I refuse. No, that is not true. I should have told you. You should have. I'm grateful you told me so now that I know that I'm not going to die. Yeah, one time. This is actually so funny.

One time, my roommate was getting off the elevator, and I think she was on with a man, like a man much taller than her, like she's not, she's not like super tall or anything, she's pretty petite, and he had punched a higher floor than her, and so, but she punched the one below, so they're riding up, and he ends up getting off with her, and so she's like, oh, okay, maybe he punched the wrong floor, and like wants to get off on our floor, and so she starts walking down this like long hallway, and she turns around, and she sees him hiding behind the corner, and he had peeked out his head.

To look at her. So, then she runs into our apartment. She calls the front desk. She's like, a man is following me. He followed me off the elevator, like, all this stuff, and then, um, I happen to be walking into the lobby as this is happening on the phone, so I think they somehow looked at the cameras, found out who it was, followed him to the floor, an apartment he eventually went into, and him and his wife were talking to the front desk, and they were like, he wasn't following her.

He has a phobia of elevators, and he cannot ride them by himself, so he was just going to ride up with her as high as he could, depending on what floor she was going to, and he was going to walk up the rest of the way, but he didn't want her to think that. He was following her, so he was waiting until she got inside, and he was hiding to see if he could walk towards the stairwell.

But now, and at first, I was like, that's a crazy story, but after experiencing the fear I feel, I'm like, it's not so crazy anymore. I give the guy some praise. Well, I would understand how he would be triggered by that specific elevator, but also, what way of life is it to live so high in a building and have a phobia of elevators? That's no way of life. I know. Like, maybe he was visiting or something.

He was talking with his wife. Okay, yeah. The story has some holes. Okay, maybe it was following her. I'm trained in tracking. Claire, you can't get around me. I'm gonna pick. So true. Yeah, Chelsea trained trauma therapist for anyone that doesn't know. Did we touch on that? I think we touched on that briefly. I'm like building a concept map for this man in the elevator. Yeah, I feel like sometimes if we're having a conversation, I wonder if like behind you, I'm trying to think of like a good comparison, but it's like you're doing like internal scans of like the data you're collecting.

But I also think that's, like, an amazing thing, because then you- I don't know. You always have just such poignant and, like, substantial things to say to people. Wow, that's very kind. But are you? The question. Say someone's on a rant. Are you, like, mm-hmm?

So, the best way that I can describe it is that, like, yes, I have a lens for things. It probably looks, like, a lot different than, like, what the average bear does have, but, like, essentially, that goes with anything that you're, like, trained in, I think. Like, so, like, when people are, like... Like, oh, like, what, like, give me your, like, therapeutic, like, process response for this, blah, blah, blah, what have you, like, basically, like, asking me for my, like, opinion as a therapist in the clinical matter that they're discussing.

I'm like, like. Are you going to pay me? Yeah, so true. Like, essentially, like, it's not something that I'm doing. It takes a lot of effort. Like, you know, so, like, I'm just living my life out here. Like, I'm not trying. You're like, I actually don't care. I'm trying my best just to be present and be a good friend. Oh, yeah, that's awesome. That's great.

Well, I guess since it is the new year, I think it's so, especially, like, I have work a corporate job, so on our, like, meeting tag-ups, everyone, and it's a virtual job, so everyone kicks off all their messages and all their meetings with, happy new year, and then you have the icebreaker, which is typically, what is your new year's resolution? But then I heard something at, like, my women's group a couple nights ago where they asked and said, what is your word for the year?

And I wonder, like, do you ever pick words to, like, center your year around, or is this, like, a new concept? Mm-hmm. So, actually, somebody was asking that at our Newport retreat. That turned into a women's retreat without anyone really knowing. Girl's trip turn retreat. So, I do have an answer to that, but I also picked the same, like, same word that I always try to center myself around, but it was surrender, and essentially, like...

The reason why I like that word so much is because it implies a lot, obviously, about our faith and how we're supposed to center ourselves in the world. So, it's not my plan, your plan, Lord. Being almost subservient in that way, I think that a lot of humans grasp for...

Well, we all want to be safe at the end of the day, right? Like, we want to feel safe, like, in a relationship, or, like, whether it be, like, actual, like, danger, like, we want to feel, like, homeostatic responses. And so, when we're looking at what we're looking for with safety in, like, the world, you reach for, like, control.

Um, and that's how a lot of people fall into spirals of anxiety, myself included. Um, like, reaching for control over a situation that I'm never going to be able to influence the outcome of anyway, or anyhow. And I think that it's, like, a very soothing thing to be able to seat yourself and surrender and say, like, that's not mine, that's yours. It's also, it's boundary setting, like, with yourself, you know? Like, you're like, that's not, I can't reach across the fence and control that.

That's something that's, like, the powers that be, like, God himself has, like, you know, like, the power that he has. Preordained or is like working in that I don't, no matter which way I try or wrestle through, no matter how many circular intrusive thoughts I have, it's not going to shift. So, like growing closer in my relationship with God through that is what I would say. Yeah, that's so awesome. And I feel like sometimes with surrender, like you're hit with something massive, like say a loss or a death or...

Losing your job, where it's like you're truly and utterly powerless, and so I feel like you're only kind of options in that scenario. You can't do anything except surrender, but it's also easier said than done. I feel like for so many people, it can breed bitterness and resentment.

And, I don't know, just having to trust, I guess, that still being supported, the hand is still carrying you through somehow on the public transportation or huge life moments where you're on the crux. Yeah, God's hand. What is your word? What did you choose at Women's Group? Oh, wait. Can we circle back? Yeah. Let's just pretend.

We didn't take the gap. Okay, never mind. We can just keep going forward. Say it, Claire. Tell me what. Oh, no. I was thinking, so it's, like, not easier to embrace surrender in, like, the big moments, but also, like, how do you surrender, like, in the teeny tiny things of life. I feel like that's, like, not a meditative skill, but it's, like, a shift of perspective that you have to practice.

Mm-hmm. In little ways. I think it's kind of like people who want to, I'm not sure why they do this, it's called like rejection therapy, where they go ask for things where they know they'll be told no. Have you heard about this? No. Oh, like they'll go ask for something from a store attendant that they know they don't sell, just to practice. I'm sure it's like great for your humility and limiting your own ego.

But I think it's also, like, a control thing, maybe? Being able to, I'm not sure. Hmm. I mean, it's interesting as a concept. I've never heard of it. I guess, like, it would be, like, approaching something, like, knowing that you'll be rejected is going to I mean, that's kind of like reaching for control, though, right? Isn't the, like, ultimate safety in finding something that is, like, you're okay with it either way? Yeah.

Like, that would be, like, the goal there. Like, if there, I don't know anything about rejection therapy, so I'm kind of talking on fumes right now, but if it's, like, approaching and, like, knowing that you're going to be told no.

That's kind of what hopelessness is, right? If you're thinking about, okay, it's easier for me to sit in hopelessness knowing that nothing will change than to take a new road and hope for change and expose yourself to the vulnerability of failing. Yeah, very true. I think I was linking it towards...

It's, you can't, I mean, I'm sure you can, you can surrender when things are joyful, but that is not when surrendering is hard. I feel like having to surrender kind of means you are not getting what you currently would like to be happening in the present, so you are kind of facing this, like, form of rejection just in your existence that you have to surrender to. I mean, it's not rejection, but it's not. Like, your own plan, I would say. Okay, yeah.

No, I can see that viewpoint. That makes, like, a lot of sense. I think that that's, like, humility, right? Being, like, you know, like, exactly what I was saying, like, not my plan, yours, Lord. Like, you know, so that makes more sense to me, like, insofar as it being, like, a therapeutic intervention.

But that's beautiful. I love surrender. Yeah. Have you ever prayed the surrender novena? I have it on my home screen. Really? Yeah. What? Yeah. Did I know that, or is that new? You used to have this beautiful quote that we saw when we went and visited that mansion in Tarrytown. Yeah, yeah, no, that's my lock screen. Okay. What I mean by when I have it on my home screen is, like, it's a little icon on my home screen, so, like, it's like an app, so, like, you can, like, click it.

At any point in time. That's nice. Does it flip through the days? I think it's seven days. No, it's just like a PDF. You can save PDFs on your home screen as an app, just in case anybody's looking to put their favorite Novena on there. Oh, that's so beautiful. Yeah, I think a friend gave me that one time when I was in this really tough time, and it's just so beautiful, and it's comforting. I think it incorporates...

Like, nature and the natural world, like, talking about, like, laying by a river, and just sort of being taken care of as, like, a child, which I think can be hard to stomach, you know, living as an adult, or, yeah, just knowing that someone is handling things that knows more than you. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, taking care of you. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Yeah.

Yeah, it talks a lot about, like, uh... God being, like, the, like, you don't question when, like, a doctor prescribes you things that are beyond your understanding. Like, you just take the prescription, and you, like, you walk out, and you do what comes, like, you deal with what comes.

So, yeah, there's a lot of really beautiful imagery in it that's really helpful for understanding pain, like suffering. Yeah. Those types of things. Yeah, essential, essential things to put in your toolkit, I guess, as you progress, because I feel like the more, and I don't know, some people are like more privileged, not experiencing suffering very young. Some people do experience suffering very young, but it seems like the more life you live, obviously, the more suffering will compound. Yeah. But you get to sort of build off of each previous suffering to equip yourself with how you're going to kind of face the next one, which I guess it's inevitable.

Yeah. But, that actually... Reminds me of, because you were also talking about sitting in hopelessness. What were you saying again about that? A lot of the time, people will choose the familiar road of sitting in stagnancy or hopelessness because it feels more safe, because their nervous system is more used to that, than choosing an unfamiliar road, which could be a more adaptive road or something that helps you more. And coping, or healing, or something, just because of the fact that it's new and unfamiliar, it feels unsafe.

So, you would think at the outset, oh, I would love to be hopeful. I would love to be in that frame of mind, and what would my possibilities be if I could hope again? But it isn't the road that a lot of people choose, because hopelessness feels more familiar. Oh, wow. That's so interesting. And yeah, what familiar is not always... Good for us. I wanted to read something. That was seamless. Seamless transition. I just pivoted off my chair, like, don't mind what's going on over here behind the curtain, but Pope Francis released this because 2025 is the year of the Jubilee.

Do you know anything about Jubilees? Um, just that they happen every 25 years, and that ours this year is, like, something, uh, hope for, um... Change? What is it? I think it's just, I'm not sure if there's like a title for it. I think it's like Soldiers of Hope or something. Oh, it sounds great. Yeah. Recruit me in that army. I mean, we're gonna have to fact check that one. Yeah, send them tour. Lots of soldier imagery coming every time. Yeah.

Soldiers on the brain. But yeah, I guess some background information. I think the Jubilee is named after the ram's horn, which used to be Used to be blown in the Jewish tradition during Yom Kippur to symbolize the Day of Atonement and to commemorate an upcoming year of rest, where I think they would take an entire year off work, they would ration all their food, rest the whole time, they would have to forgive debts, and free slaves, so everyone could go home.

And, like, be with your family, and just have that year of recuperation? I think it had to come with them just coming out of the desert, and just, like, needing to settle in. Okay, yeah. And then the Catholic tradition, obviously, took it over, and, yeah, I think it would vary every 25 years, used to be every 100 years, would follow some of the similar practices of, like, forgiveness of debts, and everything like that.

But now, I guess it's just to commemorate like a holy year of like rejuvenation, hope, renewal, and so yeah, Pope Francis actually wrote, I think they're called a bowl. It's like one of his encyclicals, but I don't think it's like on a technical matter, so it's just called Amusing of the Pope is what I'm calling it. We love that. Yeah, but He talks, it's basically like, it's probably 15 pages solely about hope.

And surrender, and endurance, and building character. So, he wrote, St. Paul is a realist. He knows that life has its joys and sorrows, that love is tested amid trials, and that hope can falter in the face of suffering. Even so, he still writes, we boast in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope.

Beautiful. Yeah. He also starts the letter by saying... That was really full circle. Yeah. He says, hope does not disappoint. Hey, that's exactly what I was just saying, that people don't choose it because there's a fear of disappointment and failing. So, that's huge. Yeah. Much healing to come for... I know. I hope so. Folks at large. Yeah, which I guess will lead into my year of 2025. Yeah, your word. It goes along with like jubilee, which I just, jubilee is like an amazing word.

It has like springs and bounces, and it's full. Yeah. But my year is joy, or my word is joy. Love that. Because I feel like I've had. I feel like my three prior winters, I have been in the middle of the trenches. Yeah. Like, about to storm, like, it's cold, and my boots are frozen. Soldier imagery. And I'm on my last cigarette, and oh no, it's actually got wet, and somebody stomped it out, like, it didn't even happen. You're emerging from the woods after Groundhog.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. She's referring to the University of Dallas Groundhog Party, but. Oh yeah, quick caveat. Yeah. But yeah, so I think going into the Christmas season, I think in terms of like faith journey, it's so easy to rely on God when things are going wrong, and you have, like I said, no other option but to kind of surrender and look to him for your strength and to be comforted and everything, because like by yourself, you're kind of floundering. Yeah. And then I've experienced when I feel happy or when I'm just even like at peace.

Yeah. My faith life kind of goes into the toilet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I don't have this weight of sorrow, like, crushing me that I need relieved. I'm like, you know what? I'm feeling pretty good. I actually don't really want to do that right now. Yeah. I don't need to pray for anything. I think I got this. But then without it, as life goes, it will, the shoe will come around, and yeah, once again.

But yeah, so like, yeah, past three winters, pretty tough, and I was entering this Christmas, and I was just feeling a lot of joy, and I was, I told my sister, I was like, I'm so excited to just lean into this season, just feeling this joyfulness, but also feeling the joyfulness in tandem with The practices of faith that I was doing that were giving me more and more joy as I continued to do them, not being in a place of suffering.

Yeah. And she was like, did you know joy is a gift of the Holy Spirit? And I was like, a gift on Christmas for me? I was like, perfect. I will take it, and I hope it lasts the entire year. And then some. Aw, I love that.

Yeah, that is actually such a good reflection about what it looks like to live your faith when things are good and when things are bad. And also, it is kind of the opposite of what you were saying earlier, when it was like nobody really wants to choose. You were saying something about when you are suffering, it is not easy to choose.

I guess hope, or what have you, whatever we were talking about earlier, but, you know, it's just a balanced, like, balanced perspective of, like, where you can find faith in both, and that's all we're really looking for at the end of the day is balance. Yeah, definitely. I love what you said about, I don't know, seeking, like, our subconscious, and, like, it's built into the psychology of seeking safety, but some people seeking safety, and...

Um, things that aren't actually good for them, but it feels safe. I feel like that's so enlightening. I definitely will take that forward into the new year, too. Like, recognizing what feels safe, but isn't actually the best fit for me. Like, where you can make changes in that way, too. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah, we can get in our own way some ways, but, you know, also, I heard recently somebody talking about, um, how self-awareness isn't only When we look at self-awareness, we want to find the ways in which we are not serving ourselves, and we are going to narrow in on that and drill that in, but self-awareness is also looking at the things that we do do well for ourselves, and looking at the ways that we are joyful, and the ways that we are doing well in our faith journey and our connectedness to our higher power and stuff.

I think that is huge. Yeah, that is awesome. Like, what? Fills my cup, and how can I multiply that thing, or keep, be consistent with that thing? I'm talking about suffering, and you're talking about joy. Well, like you said, balance. Balance. We're two sides of the scale. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was talking to someone, and they were saying, I feel like everyone this winter is just going through the trenches, like, yeah. And I was like, not me, not to brag, but like, I don't want to jinx it.

You put in the hard yards. No, I so did. You deserve some off time. I so did. So true. Yeah, because, I don't know, I feel like life is hard, relationships are hard. Yeah. Yeah, being independent on your own, I think I also realized that over Christmas.

I don't feel sad being single, because I, like, love my life. I feel like it's overflowing in so many ways. I feel so blessed to be living this, like, life that I didn't ever dream for myself, but I realize it's the perfect fit for me, and it just kind of naturally unfolded. But over Christmas, like, with my, just seeing my parents and the family they built, and then hearing about my sister, who's, like, newly married to them.

Uh, she got married in May, going to her husband's house instead for Christmas. Oh my gosh, I was like gonna cry like a little kid. Honestly, it's the worst. I was like, what do you mean you're not gonna be here for Christmas? No. And then I was like, oh wait, they started dating like younger than I am now, and I was just like thinking about things, and I was like, uh-oh.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, the spiral began. Spiralina. I mean, obviously, it was a good time, but it was just little things to be aware of. Yeah. How did I bring that up? I don't know, but that hit home. I hate it when my siblings go to the other side. I'm like, you belong with me.

You know, I was like, we could be a hundred, but like, you need to be here for Christmas. Yeah. I'm like, what are you going to do with your presents from Santa? Forget your vocation. You're mine. So true. This is for, like, the siblings. Yeah. Yeah, no. Oh, I think I was talking about how, um, Oh, when you were, like, you've paid your dues, like, with, like, the trenches of winter. Oh, yes. Like, now just lean into the joy. Yeah, I was gonna say, I think I was thinking about that, because I have 10 siblings, and then you have six.

Six. So, I feel like also with that experience, in addition to just, like, the regular trials and tribulations of life, you also have, like, six souls, or five souls, plus your parents, that you are very connected to, like.

Being inextricably intertwined as, like, a support network and a support group, that you kind of feel responsible for them, too. So, it's not a burden, but it is a huge level of responsibility, I think, having that many siblings. Right, yeah. I know. I think that that's a really funny thing.

So, yeah, I'm one of seven, and I feel like when I, like, mention that, bring that up, like, in the public hemisphere, people are like, whoa, like, that is a wild, and then, like, you're one of ten, right? One of eleven, yeah. Or one of eleven.

And, yeah, the thing that I find is, like, the funniest, like, when they're like, whoa, like, about the whole, like, many, many siblings thing is just to be like, well, I have... Six people, earth side, aside from my parents, that would run into oncoming traffic for me, so, you know, like, I don't know about you, but I'm, I'm fine. Like, the squad is set. Yeah.

But, yeah, no, it is, it's a very big. It's a social, like, support network, like, the best thing that's ever happened to me, the greatest gift I was ever given, but it's also, yeah, it's a lot. Yeah, it can be challenging, because people are so nuanced, but it is incredible. It's also, like, so fun. Yeah.

Just to have everyone around, see also how people grow up and change. And, like, see which ones are, like, most like you. Yeah. Or most like the other ones. Yeah. Or, like, some come out, like, extremely talented in some areas, and some are like me. I was just gonna be like, who are you talking about, Claire? Like, my little sister, like, unveiling her paintings on Christmas, and, like, my mom is bawling her eyes out. I go, okay, I bought you a sweater.

But it's great. I'm that sister. I've done that before. Yeah, I know. You track me as someone who would, like, come up with something insane. Well, I do. You're so happy. I'm concentrated in studio art. Oh my gosh, I did not know that. In Dallas, and I do do people's portraits, and I have pulled that exact move that you're talking about. Oh my gosh, I did not know that. Yeah, I did. The year after my grandfather's passing, I did a portrait of him and gave it to my mom and my dad, and there was not a dry eye in the room.

I swept. I absolutely killed the game. On Christmas, I won Christmas. I won Christmas. Oh, that's so sweet. I'd love to see them. That's awesome. Yeah, I'll show you sometime. Great. Well, got any fun weekend plans? Let's see. Well, we're going to a birthday party tonight. Oh my gosh, I forgot about that. Yeah, we have to tuck tail and get back to our places to go make ourselves look pretty, but yeah, our friend's 33rd birthday party. Jesus year. Yeah, one of the people that you so lovingly introduced me to.

Aw, I'm so excited. Yeah, I feel like I've been, like, locked in. I mean, it's the first week of January, so I feel like that's just, like, what people do. It's like, lock in, gotta get healthy, and being healthy is, like, very boring. Oh my gosh. I, like, go to work, and I go to the gym. It's like a personality flaw. I know. I went through a really big phase of being so healthy and, like, restrictive of, like, everything that I was doing and, like, running, like, crazy, which actually I'm kind of having to enter into that era again because I'm running the New York City Marathon.

Oh my gosh, so exciting. That's huge. Yeah, I'm going to be very, very boring for a while, but I'll push through. I'll have fun moments. Exactly. But, you know, when I'm in my healthy era, my sister is like, this is disrespectful. Like, why are you even here? Like, you won't drink a glass of wine with me? Like, go home. Yeah, but I feel like... Like readjusting, like, your priorities or whatever. Like, okay, I'm going to be training for the marathon. It will open up opportunities for new, like, different activities that you might also really enjoy.

Yeah, like, let's try rock climbing, right? 100%. I think I bouldered once. I like that boulder. Or maybe I'll drag you to go polar plunging or something. Yeah, health journey. But yeah, I was just saying, I've been trying to do that this week, and it's very boring. It's like work, gym, ground turkey.

Oh, my gosh. That just happened to be what I made. Choose chicken, Claire. I know, I also made chicken, but... Don't do ground turkey, that's just painful. Yeah, but anyway, so excited for her birthday dinner. Yay! Yeah. It'll be so fun. I don't even know where we're going. I don't know. Guess we'll have to wait and see. Yeah. All righty. Love that for us. Perfect. And, scene.