"That's Jesus!" A Nuclear Engineer's Fascinating Experiment on The Shroud of Turin w/ Bob Rucker

The Shroud of Turin is one of the oldest and most fascinating mysteries in human history. A single piece of linen, said to bear the markings of a crucified man, is believed by millions to be the burial cloth of Jesus Christ himself. For centuries, skeptics and believers alike have debated its origin. But what happens when nuclear science enters the equation? Bob Rucker is a nuclear engineer with over 40 years of experience in nuclear analysis, radiation transport, and reactor design, and he's applying that same scientific precision to the Shroud of Turin to uncover how this mysterious image was formed and whether it really could be the burial cloth of Jesus Christ.

In fact, he's the only man doing these specific tests, and he believes that his conclusions could potentially have life-altering effects for believers and non-believers alike. This is Bob Rucker and the mystery of the Shroud of Turin. The Shroud of Turin. Many people have been fascinated by it. I do not think many more fascinated than you. You have spent over a decade into research, and you have taken a scientific approach to that, which I think is kind of interesting to people in the religious community.

So, Bob, welcome to the show, and why have you dedicated so much of your life to the Shroud? Well, it is interesting, if I could give you a little bit of background on how I became interested in it. When I was young, you know, I don't know, 10 or 12, 12, 13 years old, I was delivering newspapers on Sunday morning. I'd come home early before everyone else was up, so I was flipping through the newspaper, and at that time, in the newspaper was a paper magazine called Parade, and I was just flipping through that, and I found a little picture here, maybe an inch and a quarter inch and a half high.

Just of the face on the Shroud of Turin, I'd never... I was not aware of it at all at that point. It was a fuzzy picture. I didn't know what it was. It kind of looked like a face, but then off to the right, there was three or four sentences, and the last sentence said that a lot of people think that this is the actual burial cloth of Jesus, and I thought, well, that can't be. I mean, if that were true, then everyone would know it.

It would be so highly revered, so highly recognized. Why would anyone talk about anything else? You know, that was my attitude, but then I thought, you know, a couple of weeks after, I kept thinking about it, and I thought, well, I need to be a little bit more open-minded than that to at least investigate it, and so...

That is when I started being aware of it, and when I saw a book on it in the bookstore, I bought it and read it, and years later, I found another one and read that, and it became pretty persuaded that it really was the authentic burial cloth of Jesus.

Well, it turned out that there was a young girl in San Diego. I was growing up south of Detroit, but there was a young girl in San Diego who also saw that picture, and I later married her, and I didn't know that she had seen it until after we were married. So, it just seems like when she saw it, she was really impressed with it, and she took it into the church where she was attending, and the Sunday school teacher at that point kind of poo-pooed the whole idea.

You know, but it just seems like, you know, God has arranged all this, you know, so I finally got into nuclear engineering, and I worked in the nuclear industry for 38 years, wondering why I was doing it, because every project seemed to indicate that you can't do it that way. So, rather discouraging, but what I was learning was how to run nuclear analysis, computer calculations, and how to do statistical analysis of experimental data, both of which I have used on my analysis on the Shroud of Turin.

So, I'm the only person in the world running nuclear analysis computer calculations on the Shroud of Turin. Okay, before we get back to the interview with Bob, I want to tell you about an organization doing really meaningful work. It's called Life on Belay. They partner with nonprofits and ministries across the country to help them get clear on their mission, strengthen their teams, and build the kind of structure that leads to long-term impact. It's all in the name Belay. In rock climbing, a belay is the safety system.

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That is lifeonbelay.org, where life-affirming impact is accelerated. Click on the link in the description below and see how you can accelerate your impact with Life on Belay. How did it obtain the name Shroud of Turin? Why is it not called the burial cloth of Jesus? Well, it has gone through many different names over the history of it, and that is part of the problem in doing the history. Because it's been called the Mendelian. It's been called the image of God incarnate.

It's been called something the equivalent of folded in four, referring to how it was folded. So, when it went into Leray, France in the 1350s, then it was called the Shroud of Leray. When it was transported down to Chambery, France, where it was in the fire in 1550, In 1332, it was called the Shroud of Chambury, something like that, Chambury, France, the Shroud of Chambury. So, it has only been called the Shroud of Turin since it came into Turin in 1578.

So, it's gone through all these name changes in the process. So, when you're looking back through the history of things, you're never quite sure whether these unusual names apply to the original cloth that buried Jesus, or whether it might be referring to some kind of a copy of it. Because, of course, they didn't have copy machines back then. If you wanted to show the Shroud of, what we now call the Shroud of Turin, if you wanted to show that in your own church, you'd come to where it was and make a copy of it by painting it on a copy.

So, then, that's how the whole focus on relics started in the Catholic Church, because there were relics that were authentic. Okay, now, and then... I think a lot of what they call relics or icons are probably not authentic, but some are, and this is the one in particular that is authentic. That's my conclusion.

And that's been really fascinating to the scientific community, to realize that there actually are these real relics, not just copies, and then trying to scientifically prove that they existed during the time period that they would have existed. Oh, yes. So, when someone says, oh, there's a relic here, or there's a relic there, you… Instead of saying, well, all relics are just invalid, instead of saying that, because that has been a long-standing attitude in the Church.

If you go back and read the history of Christianity, for example, you get that feel of iconoclasm, I believe it was called. Where they want to get rid of the icons or relics. They want to modernize things and get rid of the old things based upon superstition. Well, no. The correct attitude is, let us investigate each one scientifically to see if there is any validity, any evidence that it is authentic, and when that approach is taken on the Shroud of Turin, your conclusion is that, yes, it is authentic, and I am thoroughly convinced that it is.

I don't have a doubt about it. Yeah, and how did you, so how did you apply your scientific background then to the shroud itself, and what is unusual, say, scientifically about the shroud? Oh my goodness, there's so many things that are unusual about it.

First of all, the Shroud of Turin is a piece of linen cloth that's now in Turin, Italy, and in 2023, my wife and I were invited to go to Italy and do presentations on the Shroud, and while we were there, we went to the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Turin, Italy, and up in the front left-hand corner of that Chapel, that cathedral, behind glass is a stainless steel box large enough to hold the Shroud of Turin as it lays flat.

So, it is about 15 feet by 4 feet in dimensions, and probably about 4 or 5 feet high. Stainless steel box filled with argon, because that is an inert gas to minimize oxidation of the Shroud. Because oxidation and dehydration of the shroud are the enemies of a clear view, because that darkens the background, thus decreasing the contrast. So, the image on the Shroud of Turin was more visible in the past than it is today. For example, back in the 1st and 2nd centuries, it was probably more visible.

There is some indication of that, that they could see things. That we can't see today. So, what other parts of your question are there? I probably left out some parts of your question. Yeah, and I think you have it in the slideshow that you have prepared, the image of the Shroud itself. Yes. You said it was darkened, but you can see it in a photographic negative, I believe. Yes. If you go to Turin, and it was shown last in 2015. It is only...

...brought out of its box occasionally, a few times every century. We were hoping that with us being a fourth of the way through the century, that it would be shown in 2025. And it may yet be shown on the internet, but there were security issues, so that I think they are not going to be showing it in person, unfortunately. Now, I would like to have... The ability of some of the Shroud researchers to see it personally, I think, would make all the difference in the world.

Now, in 2015, I did not go to see it because I thought that I can see it better On a photograph, because photography automatically enhances the contrast so that you can see things much better on a photograph than in real life. But when the first photograph was taken in 1898 by a man named Segunda Pia, he was a lawyer, but he had a hobby in photography. And this was when So, photography involved very large cameras and very large glass plates to register the light on, but he was an amateur photographer, and in 1898, he was allowed to go in and take the first photograph of the Shroud of Turin after one of the expositions where they showed it to the general public, and so he took several different photographs at that point.

And took them back, the glass plates back to his dark room, and probably under the typical red light. In his fixer, he was probably moving the glass plate back and forth, as is even done today, in his little tray of fixer. And gradually, the image would come up, and what he expected to see was a blurry negative image.

Because what you look at when you see it with your unaided eye, it's kind of blurry, and it's hard to see exactly what it is. And so, as he was in the darkroom, and he would have held it up as the image was coming up, and at that point, the way the story goes, and I assume it's true, that he almost dropped it at that point because of shock.

Because instead of seeing a blurry, positive image, he saw a fairly clear, negative image. That totally surprised him, because at that point, the general opinion was that the image on the Shroud of Turin was some kind of a painting. And so...

But, a painter in that era would never have seen a negative image. They wouldn't even know what that concept was. They wouldn't have known until the invention of the camera. And so, when he saw what was the equivalent of a negative image, What should have been a negative image, but it was actually a positive image on his plate, he immediately reasoned out that, therefore, what was on the shroud was a negative image.

That indicates that it's authentic, because it couldn't be a painting. This would be his thinking process, because a painter in that era would never have seen a negative image, and you can't paint what you've never seen. So, at that point, the response of people was that they accused him of faking the pictures, and as a lawyer, he lost his credibility until 1931, when Giuseppe Enri took the next photograph and proved the same thing that Segundapia found in 1898.

And so, modern scientific approach to the Shroud was not done until Segundapia took his photographs in 1898. There were some people that believed Segundapia and did extensive research on it at that point, and there were some very famous scientists involved in the process, and so that in just a few years, they went back To report this, I'm sorry, I don't remember the names of them right now, they went back to report in the large symposium what they found, and it was interesting that all the other scientists just rejected it.

They didn't want to believe it, because if the shroud is the authentic burial cloth of Jesus, and the images Were made by a burst of radiation from the body, which I believe most shroud researchers believe today, if the images were made by a burst of radiation from the body, how does that happen? Well, dead bodies don't emit such a burst of radiation. That would only occur If Jesus was resurrected from the dead, so that the atoms in his body disappeared from our perception of reality, And made a transition to an alternate dimensionality.

In physics terminology, that's what I would call it. Layman might call it heaven, but that's okay. I'd call it an alternate dimensionality. A dimensionality would be a system of alternate dimensions, because you stop and think about it. We have five senses. We can see, we can hear, we can smell, taste, and touch. And with those five senses, we automatically assume that there is an alternate dimensionality, and we can see that there is an alternate dimensionality. That we're detecting all of reality.

But there's no evidence for that. There's actually no proof for that. And string theory, in its attempt to come up with a theory of everything, which was the main emphasis of modern physics for the last 50 or 60 years, come up with a theory that explains all the subatomic particles and all their characteristics, as well as the forces in nature. And the theories that they came up with are called string theories, where a string It's not a normal piece of string, as you would think, but it's an extremely short length of pure energy, whatever that is.

But they said, we can explain all the characteristics of subatomic particles and forces in nature, except for gravity, if you allow us one assumption, and that is that there are alternate dimensions which our five senses cannot detect. It doesn't make sense? So, you understand what I'm saying? I hope you understand. I think I'm tracking. Okay, let me just do my best to recap, I think, and then maybe we can save around the same page. So, people up until the point of that man taking the first picture of the shroud thought that...

Someone had painted on a smudged image that looks kind of like Jesus on his burial spot. Yeah, a fake, a smudged image to take into a church, and you draw visitors from all over the world, and they bring money.

Right, totally. Okay, so that was the assumption until this photograph was taken, and the guy who took the photograph was so shocked by what came. It wasn't a negative, but a positive, because it looked so much like a man, assuming that man was Jesus, because this was his burial cloth. Like, striking resemblance, matching with the wounds of Jesus, everything. The whole body cloth was like, oh my gosh, this is a man who looked like he was crucified. It looks like we thought Jesus would look like.

Almost lost his credibility. Actually, did probably lose his credibility on that. Reaffirmed by a second person. The only way, because the only way that this would be possible, because how people die normally, you know, this type of radiation wouldn't occur, would be that there was some type of burst of radiation, which we wouldn't say is the resurrection, which you would say is the resurrection, that occurred, that would leave that type of imprint on the burial cloth. And the explanation for... That is that it entered a different dimension, which, as you said, I am a layman, would probably be heaven or some type of spiritual existence beyond the physical plane, and you're now explaining that.

Scientists have become fascinated with this in physics because it could be explained potentially by string theory, which tries to explain what is beyond the five senses that we currently possess. Yeah, so what I'm saying here is that, and this goes back to my, if you go to my website, shroudresearch.net, in starting this effort on the Shroud of Turin, the first thing I did was paper number one. If you go over to the third page on my website, shroudresearch.net, that is where I have all my papers that I have written.

I have written 39 papers on the Shroud of Turin. So, paper number two did an extensive Bible study on the nature of Jesus' resurrection and resurrection in general in the Bible, the theology of resurrection. So, that was from a biblical perspective. Okay.

How Jesus' body could have disappeared from our perception of reality. That's what I'm saying, okay? His body was not... The mass of his body did not make a transition into pure energy, because that would have created a nuclear explosion that is a thousand times larger than the largest nuclear weapon ever set off. It would have destroyed the cloth. It would have destroyed the tomb. It would have destroyed Jerusalem. It would have destroyed most of Israel. So, that did not happen. Well, that is my paper number two, where I go through seven different options, scientific options.

How the body could have disappeared from our perception of reality. My conclusion, especially given the fact that Jesus' body reappeared. In his post-resurrection appearances, without going through the walls, without going through the locked door, without going through the locked windows, it simply appeared within the room, shocking everyone. How is that possible? Well, it is possible if you are making transitions between alternate dimensions.

That would be the physics term for it. Okay, so that is the background to this. Let me show you one thing. Yeah. In the June 1980 issue. Of National Geographic. Now, this isn't it, but we'll get to it. June 1980, and National Geographic is just a collection of photos with discussion on them. But in the June 1980 issue, they have a beautiful four-page fold-out, so you can see the front image here.

The front image of the Shroud of Turin, and then you have the back image. It might hold it upside down here, so that you can see the head here. So, it is a head-to-head image. These scorch marks occurred in 1532, when it was folded up in a silver box. In chambery France, and the church caught fire, and they ran in with the attempt to save the most valuable possession of Christianity, and that's the Shroud of Turin. So, they ran in at the risk of their lives, and they were able to pull it, get it out.

When they did so, they threw water on it. You can see some of the water stains, for example, here, where they threw water on it to cool it down, but what it did, because it was folded up, one side was scorched, so it left these scorch marks, and then one corner was burned, and you can see that down here, so that one corner that was burned, They had to patch it in four places here, here, and then...

Here and here. So, that one corner that burned required 16 patches to be put onto the shroud when it was unfolded. So, that is what we have, but what I wanted to point out to you was that when I made a presentation at the University of California at Berkeley in a hotel there, A friend and myself walked in to the hotel, and walked up to the front desk, and I said to the young man that was there, I'm here to make a presentation on the Shroud of Turin, and he said, what's that?

And so, I whipped out this copy of Shroud of Turin, laid it in front of him, and in about two seconds, he said, that's Jesus! Well, that is what everyone should realize, and they should realize that quickly. That is Jesus, just by looking at it. Why do you have to do years and years of experiments on it? You look at it, and you know it is Jesus. Why do you think he said that, the young man? Because in his mind...

He had a concept of what Jesus looked like, and this becomes interesting in history, because the history of the Shroud actually goes back. This is tradition. Of course, you have to realize that in the first probably 300 years of Christianity, I think I calculated one time, that they were under severe persecution 82% of the time. In the first 300 years. And so, they didn't want to lose the Shroud of Turin, so that when the emperor heard that there was a church, had the burial cloth of Jesus, he wanted it.

This is according to tradition. He sent his agents to get it. Now, at that point, in the churches, there was a person called the Keeper of the Relics. So, the emperor's agents went to the Keeper of the Relics, and he wouldn't tell where it was.

They threatened to torture him. He said, I'm not telling you. So, they tortured him to the point of death. At that point, nobody knew where it was. He had hidden it. It wasn't until probably the early 500s. Now, this event took place maybe in the late 100s, the early 200s. So, it was probably about 300 years where nobody knew where it was. Finally, the wall It needed to be repaired due to multiple fires and floods, and in the repair process, above one gate, up in a niche, when they tore the wall apart, they found this object, probably with documentation to it, as to what it was and where it came from, etc.

And so, it was at that point that people knew what Jesus looked like. They didn't know before. So, at that point, then, in about 550 AD or so, was the first painting made. It was called the Christ Pantocrator image, and then that image, based upon the face on the Shroud of Turin, that image on the Christ Pantocrator image was then copied in Byzantine iconography for hundreds of years until it Until that image of his face came down to us, including the young man at the University of California at Berkeley, so that the image on the Shroud of Turin, large eyes, long nose, mustache, beard, sometimes with a little bottom part.

Missing. Hair parted in the middle, coming down a little longer on one side than the other, looking straight at you. That's the image from the Shroud of Turin that's been propagated down through the history of civilization for 2,000 years. And that's why he had that concept and could look at this image and simply say, that's Jesus.

Isn't that interesting? Wow. Yeah. Wow. So, it has come down to us. It is just kind of general knowledge. That is what Jesus looks like. Totally. If you were to ask me, I would have given a very similar description, but I guess I never thought about why.

I thought about it that way, and there's, you know, lots of debate, I feel like, about, but yeah, you're right, everyone kind of knows. Quick question. The shroud that they found in the doorframe, that was potentially hidden by the Keeper of the Relics. So, you said on the original shroud, you could see better before it was maintained with certain chemicals? Probably. The contrast has gradually decreased. Now, the other thing that I would have to say was that the image... Probably did not occur immediately.

Isn't that interesting? Okay, why? Well, testing has been done with different kinds of radiation, and often the radiation in and of itself does not produce an image that you can see. But if you put that piece of linen cloth that you irradiated, for example, with protons or ultraviolet light, And you put it into the oven and bake it to simulate the aging process.

The image will then come up, okay, so that you can see it. Now, isn't that interesting? That would indicate that initially, when Peter and John went into the tomb, and Of course, in John 20, in the early chapters there, about verses 1 through 10, it tells you the story. And so, Peter and John ran to the tomb. John ran a little bit faster, maybe younger than Peter. He got there first, and he wanted to look inside the tomb, but there's no skylight, there's no windows, there's no electric lights inside the tomb.

The only light was coming in through the doorway. So, he bent down well back from the doorway to let light in. I make a point of that. Because what he was looking at would be the back bench, not the side benches at that point. And so, he saw the body cloth and other cloths, probably tie strips and maybe cloths used for washing, potentially for washing the body. Whether it was washed or not is a debate, okay? But then he also saw another cloth, which would be the face cloth, That was separate from the body cloth, so the face cloth was probably on the side bench, and that all becomes interesting in the nuclear analysis computer calculations that I'm doing, so that when I model the Shroud of Turin, For nuclear analysis, what I'm modeling, I model a human body in just simple geometrical shapes.

I actually use eight different shapes, cuboids, or like pyramid, cut pyramid shapes, to model the body. And then around it, I put a rectangular box all the way down of very thin linen to make it easy to model how the shroud ...was located around the body. And then I placed that into a limestone tomb, as it would have been produced in first century Jerusalem, based upon archaeologists' recommendations. So, I model a back bench, a left bench, a right bench, a rolling stone in front of the entrance, and then I put...

One meter of limestone below the tomb, to the right and left of the tomb, and to the back of the tomb, and above the tomb. The front wall I make thinner, but that is my model, and I can show pictures of my model. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so then, so what I'm saying here is that in the resurrection, According to the evidence of the carbon dating, and there's not just one evidence, there's actually four evidences that come down to us from carbon dating.

So, if anyone says, well, the shroud was dated to the Middle Ages, 1260 to 1390, and that proves that it was from the Middle Ages, my response is, but what's the rest of the information? You know, the best way to do deception Is through partial truth.

Okay, right? Okay. And that's what the typical communication regarding the Shroud of Turin carbon dating is. It's deception, because it's only noting one out of four evidences from the Shroud. So, not only do you have the mean or the average value, people doing statistical analysis call it the mean value, but it's the average value is what we're talking about. So, we have that. We also have a slope of the data that In the tomb, so that the carbon date from the three different laboratories is not consistent with one another.

It's statistically inconsistent, and that can be shown. And so, you have to ask, why? Why is it that if you move the sample point by about that much, you get a different date? Why is that? Well, it turns out that the rate of change is about 36 years per centimeter, or 91 years per inch.

Well, so, the shroud, according to the mean carbon date, or average carbon date, was about 1260. So, if you move the sample point at that rate, about 10 inches, you would change the date by 910 years. More recent. So, you take 1260 plus 910 years, you end up with, you get a date of 2170 AD. That's to the future.

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Click the link below and promo code LOOP60. Let's get back to the show. Is the number one charge against the shrouds authenticity that it is a timing issue? Is this carbon dating issue, that it wasn't actually from the period of time of Jesus? Yes, yes. And then the second question. Yeah, that's the most common explanation, but with what I've done, I've taken that explanation against the Shroud and turned it 180 degrees around, so that the carbon dating now is the best evidence for the authenticity of the Shroud.

And then, before you get into that, what is carbon dating, simply, and how does this apply to the Shroud? Yes, of course. Everything is made of atoms. So, the human body is made of tissues, which is made of organic compounds.

Organic means containing carbon. And so, those organic compounds are made of atoms. The atoms in each atom, in the center of each atom. It contains neutrons and protons, with electrons going around the nucleus of the atom. So, the carbon in the body, and there is lots of carbon in the body.

There are three different... The isotopes of carbon, an isotope is an element that just has a different number of neutrons in it. So, each isotope would have the same number of protons and electrons, but a different number of neutrons. So, that carbon-12 has six protons in the nucleus and six neutrons. Because there are six protons, each with a positive charge, there is to be six electrons, each with negative charge. So that from outside of that atom, it looks to be neutral.

Because the six electrons compensate for the six protons. Gotcha. Got it. Okay. So, that is carbon-12, but there is also carbon-13 with one more neutron, and carbon-14 with two more neutrons. So, carbon-14 has eight neutrons. That makes it unstable, so that it decays with a half-life of 5,180 years, I believe it is, which means that in that length of time, Half of it would disappear. It would change into another element. So, it would gradually decay. So, in carbon dating, what you are doing is that you are measuring, the actual measurement is to measure the ratio of carbon-14 to carbon-12.

Now, when a living organism is alive, the carbon-14 in its body, in its organism, whether plant or animal, is decaying, but he's also taking in food. From either animals or plants, which contain carbon-14. So, the intake of carbon-14, while he's alive, compensates for the decay of carbon-14 after the death of the plant or animal, so that you can tell how old the plant or animal is, the time since it was no longer taking in New carbon-14. You can tell by that ratio of carbon-14 to carbon-12 gradually decaying, okay?

So that... And that is the assumption in carbon dating, that based on the assumption that that ratio of carbon-14 to carbon-12 is only changing due to the decay of carbon-14, that allows a simple equation to be arrived at by which you can take the experimental ratio, the measured ratio of carbon-14 to carbon-12, Apply that simple equation and produce a date. Okay, are you with me? Yep. Okay, and so the issue that arises, though, that that equation can only be used if the assumption is true, that that ratio has not changed.

From anything else, only due to decay of the carbon-14. So, what I'm saying is that new carbon-14 was produced on the shroud by neutron absorption. That is, in the resurrection, there was a very small fraction, very small fraction, of the neutrons in the body were emitted from the body.

They then, 75% of them or so, exited the body, went across the air gap between the body and the cloth, if there was an air gap. Then, went through the cloth, because neutrons are very penetrating, because they have no electrical charge, so they don't interact with the electrons circling the nucleus. So, they're very penetrating. They only interact when they hit another nucleus, which is very small, relative to the entire atom, so that these neutrons would then go across after they Go past the cloth, they would go through the air and into the limestone, bounce around, bouncing off of the limestone, the nuclei in the limestone, large of calcium, and about half of them would come back out, and so there would be two options for neutrons to create new carbon-14 on the cloth.

It is first time through, and then after it returns from the limestone. So that there is a difference between the right and left side of his body, because on his right side, with his head to the right, and I think his head was to the right, I can get into the evidence for that, but if his body was laid on the back bench with his head to the right, then the right side of his body was next to the wall.

So, the neutrons returning from the wall would create more new carbon-14 on the right side of his body than on the left side of his body, so that about 75% of the cloth would date to the future. That is what my computer calculations indicate. So, that the sample that was taken in 1988 was from the far corner of the shroud. So, that the shroud, though it should have carbon dated to 33 AD.

If there was no new carbon-14 produced on it, yet the samples were dated to 1260, so that the carbon date had been shifted from 33 AD to about 1260, which is a shift of 1,227 years. Okay, but what about other places on the Shroud? Well, the maximum... According to my computer calculations, according to this concept of neutron emission from the body in the resurrection, if you look on the cloth below the body, that would be the dorsal or back image of the Shrug, and if you look under the center of the body mass, which would be a little bit below the heart, you'd say, the center of the body mass, That would carbon date to about 8,000 AD, 8,500 AD, due to neutron absorption in the cloth, shifting it from 33 AD up to 8,500 AD.

On the right elbow, So, the right elbow would carbon date to about 4,500. On the left elbow would carbon date to about 3,500. And the difference between the right elbow and the left elbow, that thousand-year difference, is because on the right side, the limestone wall would be returning neutrons, which would have a second chance, then, of being absorbed. Actually, in nitrogen-14. So, the concept here, there's actually three different mechanisms to produce new carbon-14 on the shroud, but absorption in nitrogen-14 is about 94.3% of the total.

So, that's the one that I'm... That is taken into account in my calculations. I am ignoring the other two. So, first off, fascinating. I think I have more of a philosophical question for you at this point. I think when people think about miracles, or maybe the layman thinks about miracles as a Catholic, it is something that, maybe I have heard the phrase, this is something science can't explain. And what you're presenting to me through, you know, 30 plus years nuclear expertise is an attempt to use science to help explain this phenomena of, say, the resurrection, what's going on in Jesus.

So, to you... Why, I guess, why does it matter? Why does it matter so much to you to do this work for so long, to get to the bottom of this and use the scientific method? First off, why does it matter? And then how is science interacting with this phenomenon in general, I guess? Yeah. Yes, yes. So, why am I interested in it? Just because it's a mystery.

I guess I'm a person who loves mysteries. I remember in elementary school and junior high school, especially the math teachers would present us with... So, brain teasers, you might say. Maybe on a Friday, they'd say, this is the brain teaser for this week, and think about it over the weekend. Come back in and tell me the answer on Monday. So that, you know, I'd be thinking on these brain teasers, these mysteries. And so, I was kind of trained that way. And so, that's been useful in a scientific career.

Because a lot of science, you think about the founders of science. Who were they, and why were they founding science the way that they did? So, we're talking about Kepler and Newton and people like that, and what they would often say is that we want to determine how God did it, okay?

So, the science is based on a concept not of ruling God out, but simply of following the evidence that we see in our physical reality, following the evidence where it leads, to find out how God did it. Okay, well, you know, in elementary school, I was, we had a good library, and they had one shelf of great scientists for the elementary age student, you know, fifth and sixth grade, and those are the books that I was reading. And so, I was basically trained in this based upon my reading.

And so, You know, I saw this little image from the Shroud of Turin, maybe when I was 12 or 13 years old, but I was aware of it, but I had to put it on the, you might say, the back burner of my life, because I was just so busy in school and went through the University of Michigan, earned a bachelor and then master's degrees in nuclear engineering, started to work at General Atomics in San Diego, worked there for a little over 24 years, I think, and then went in to consult in various locations around the country.

But, in all of that process, I thought, well, gee whiz, occasionally I would think, gee whiz, I'd like to be working on the Shroud of Turin, but I can't. There's too many problems to it, because the computers aren't fast enough. I don't have the right computer code. And I'm too busy. And so, finally, about 2013, the computers had evolved to where they were fast enough. The computer code That I wanted to use, I had become familiar with. I had about 12 years experience in using that.

That is called MCNP. It is an acronym for Monte Carlo N-particle, where N stands for neutrons. It is a typical nuclear analysis computer code that is used to do calculations for everything nuclear, from nuclear reactors to shielding to detectors, etc. Um, so, um, can I ask, um, you were talking about the relationship of, uh, say like the fathers of science, uh, saw it as discovering what God has revealed to us, basically. If I were to listen to a lot of modern scientists, I think the modern attitude is that science somehow replaces God or This proves the existence of God.

It does not seem like you have that view. Why do you think that took root, and then do you see any issue with that, or is that just a misunderstanding, or what is that to you? It is totally wrong. We need to go back to the original purpose for science, and that is to seek truth rather than to promote your presuppositions. God's non-existence. So, why do maybe 95% of scientists, why are they naturalists? That is, they assume that everything has to be natural.

Now, what does natural mean? It means common. Or normal. That's all it means. And when you say I'm a naturalist, well, that shouldn't rule out God doing miracles. It really shouldn't. You have no evidence, even if you assume naturalism, unless you're assuming it in the sense that it's impossible for God to do something other than the laws of physics as we currently understand them. So, You have to make that clear, that the history of physics proves that physics has progressed, that we understand much more now than we did in the past.

So, that would lead you to the conclusion that we should never assume that we know everything. Because we have always learned something in the future, and that is where science is now, with the new telescope, the James Webb telescope, is making tremendous new discoveries, and they are discovering that there are problems in the Big Bang cosmology that they had no idea existed. For example, the Big Bang cosmology predicts a large fraction of lithium. In the universe, and when the James Webb Telescope looks for it, it doesn't find it.

In other words, the Big Bang cosmology is a hypothesis. Now, a hypothesis is not truth. A hypothesis is a concept that is claimed to possibly be true. So then, a hypothesis should make predictions. If it doesn't make predictions, how in the world do you test it? So, a hypothesis should make predictions, and the Big Bang cosmology predicts a large fraction of lithium in the universe. When that prediction is tested, it's falsified. It's found to be not true. What does that tell you about Big Bang cosmology?

As it's phrased, at least, it cannot be true. That is science, okay? Now, you have to be careful to note what I am doing here, and how I am going about this. And let us compare this with Big Bang Cosmology. Compare what I am doing with Big Bang Cosmology. So, they take all the evidence, and they try and come up with a concept that is the best explanation.

For all the evidence that they believe is true, They then take that hypothesis that they're claiming could be true. They make predictions. Those predictions are then tested. If, in the testing process, the testing proves those predictions to be true, then it doesn't prove the hypothesis true, but what it does is that it indicates to scientists that it's more credible. The hypothesis is more credible, so it increases the credibility of the hypothesis, because scientists know that even after a large number of predictions are found to be true, you can find one prediction that's found to be false.

And that's where Einstein's general theory of relativity is now. It's probably passed a hundred different predictions successfully, but they're still trying to find some prediction that might be false. In what sense could Einstein's general theory of relativity be false? And so, the hypothesis is a concept that's proposed by the person Putting it together, that is presented as could be true, based on how the testing of the predictions turn out. But now, with Big Bang cosmology, that when they tested for the lithium content, they found it to be false.

So, therefore, at least as it's phrased, Big Bang cosmology is wrong. It cannot be true, and you have to realize that is the process. So, in my process, I have done the same thing, and that is where we go into the concept of image formation, because I would say the three main, if I can name three, three main mysteries of the Shrug. Number one, how were the images formed? Number two, Why did the carbon date this route to the Middle Ages?

Number three, how did the blood that dried on the body get onto the cloth? Very interesting concepts, and I think all three could be related, and I believe at least the first two are related, and possibly the third. I have not expanded on my theory. I have not applied it too much with the third, but the first two, after solving The carbon dating problem for the Shroud of Turin, by way of neutrons being emitted from the body in the resurrection, I then progressed into trying to solve a number one mystery, which was image formation.

And I have come up with a concept, again, by following all of the evidence where it leads. So, in my paper number 34 on my website, shroudresearch.net, my paper 33 is on carbon dating, paper 34 is on image formation. 34 and 35 are on image formation.

And so, what I did, I said, okay, let's do science. Let us not just make an assumption that the Bible is true, that Jesus resurrected. None of that. You just follow science, where it leads. But you be careful in doing that, and find out where it does lead you. And so, I put together a list of 27 different evidences related to the images on the Shroud of Turin, and then in my paper 34, I followed each of those evidences one by one.

It is about a 30 to 35-page paper. I followed each one of those 27 different evidences to come up with a concept that is consistent with all the evidence, because I started with the 27 different evidences. So, the concept that I end up with has to be consistent with all those. Now, maybe I've made a mistake in my logic. Maybe I've made a mistake in omitting some evidence related to the shroud. So, what I've done on my paper 34 could be attacked in both those senses, but if that's the case, as a scientist, you have to be willing to say, yes, the experiment disproves my hypothesis.

Therefore, it can't be true as it's stated. Let me see if I can restate it and take into account the new evidence, if there is new evidence. So, what I basically arrived at here was that the root cause of the images were a vertical oscillation. You know, oscillation is this behavior, going up and down, forward and backward. In this case, a vertical oscillation of the nuclei in the body.

I didn't expect to end up there. I didn't invent this out of nowhere. I came up with it as following the 27 different evidences, one by one, until it directed me to believe that the images were formed by a vertical oscillation of the nuclei in the body. Well, what would cause that? Well, I really have no idea. I could guess, but see, the problem is that that is outside Of our current understanding of the laws of physics. So, a naturalist would say, ah, that's a miracle.

And, you know, I don't like the word miracle, miraculous, or supernatural. I try not to use them, unless we're being very careful as to what they mean. Because, you know, two weeks ago, I took my wife to Costco, and we drove around and around trying to find a parking place, until I finally found a parking place, drove right in, turned the car off, and I looked, and we were right in front of the doorway. It was a miracle.

Well, is that what we mean by a miracle? You know, we have to be careful when we use these words, at least in a sense of science. So, I don't like those words being used. So, when I'm referring to this, I say, I'm referring to an event that is beyond or outside of our current understanding of the laws of physics. Other people would say, oh, well, that's a miracle. Okay, if that's how you want to define it. Okay?

So, then that would apply to... And when I say miracle, I am not talking about Costco, although I appreciate the analogy. Yes. It would be like Eucharistic miracles around the world, like a Eucharist turning into flesh, or like having the same blood type as Jesus had. So, you would still, in your scientific mind, refer to that as something beyond our current understanding of physics. Yes. It would be a more accurate term than miracle. Yeah, so then it becomes an issue of, you know, if you say, yes, this event, this thing that has happened, and you say, yes, this event has happened, and you say, yes, this event has happened, Is outside of our current understanding of the laws of physics.

Then, as a Christian, you'd say, well, did God build that in to the normal fabric of the universe, but we just haven't discovered it yet? Is that what it is? Or is it that God changed the laws of physics for this particular ...event or thing that's happened. And so, you know, you could talk about that distinction, I think. Yeah, that's a really interesting distinction. And I think, just, I mean, it's honestly been really refreshing and interesting to hear you talk about science, because I think it just, at least when I listen to certain scientists, I sense a bit of arrogance.

And basically, your view of science requires a lot of humility for... The understanding of God or understanding of things beyond what we currently understand, basically, to do science the way that you're doing it requires that, almost as a non-starter. Yes, you go through the Old Testament, and every place where it gives you the list of human sins, it always lists pride as number one, because pride leads to everything else.

Isn't that interesting? So, when we come before God, as you come to realize the holiness of God, and think of Isaiah chapter 6, where it talks about Isaiah's vision of heaven. And God being on the throne, high and lifted up, and the angels surrounding the throne calling out, holy, holy, holy. All the world is full of his glory. And you come away with that, realizing that we are very small, and we know nothing.

And that's exactly what Einstein said. The more he learned, the more he realized that the less he knew. So, you know, our position here in life and relative to God is one of absolute humility, because we know nothing. Just think about the ending chapters of Job, where Job, you know, You know, he was arrogant. You know, I'm righteous. I don't know why God has brought this on me, but I'm righteous and virtuous. And God comes on the scene and says, Job, where were you when I created the universe?

Did I talk it over with you? No. I mean, I don't know if you could sense it, but it is hilarious talking to a nuclear expert. And hearing him say, spend over a decade on just The Shroud, hearing him say that I know nothing.

Yeah, well, I don't know what caused the root cause, because it's outside of our current understanding of the laws of physics. Now, if I were asked to speculate on it, I would say, well, it could have been caused by a vertical oscillation of an electric field.

That then caused the nuclei, the charged nuclei at the center of each atom, to vibrate vertically. And in that process, let me go on as to what that vertical oscillation then caused. So, each element, most elements are composed of multiple different isotopes with various numbers of neutrons in them.

Hydrogen comes in three different isotopes, where there is either the most common form of hydrogen has only the proton, no neutrons at all. But then there is, it is called deuterium has one neutron, and tritium has two. Neutrons. So, I'm talking about deuterium now, which has one proton and one neutron in the nucleus. It's a form of hydrogen because it only has one electron circling the nucleus because there's only one proton, and it's the electron that determines the chemistry of the element.

So, there is a certain graph that is well known in nuclear engineering. If I were to draw it, it would go up like this, to a peak, and come down in this direction. And that is the graph of binding energy.

Pernucleon. Now, you can look that up on Wikipedia, and you can see the curve, and this is the curve which tells you when uranium splits, it goes up the curve so that it releases energy, and any item on that upward curve can release energy until you get to iron at the top, and then as you come down to split the nuclei, You have to put energy into it. So, the minimum energy required to split any isotope of any element is deuterium.

So, in this vertical oscillation of my root cause, let me call it that, if it had enough energy and high enough frequency, which isotope would it split first? It would be deuterium. And that would emit a proton and a neutron, and they would shoot off in opposite directions. Let me do it this way. They shoot off in opposite directions with the proton. If the proton goes up, then the neutron goes down. If the proton goes down, then the neutron goes up.

So, what this does is that the protons form the images, and the neutrons Go through the cloth. We're going to create some new carbon-14, go into the limestone, some of them come back out, produce more carbon-14. So, it's the neutrons that are shifting the carbon date, whereas the protons are forming the image. So, we have both things going on simultaneously, so that as the various deuterium nuclei split, Going up or down with the protons, they're forming the front and back image simultaneously, and that explains two important features of the images.

It explains why the front and back image have the same characteristics, because they were formed by the same process. Neutrons, proton absorption, depositing its charge on the cloth. So, it is not due to radiation damage. It is due to deposition of the charge on the cloth. And then, the neutrons then would be, oh, the other thing it is explaining, not only the similarity of the front and back images, but it also explains why there were no side images on the cloth.

Because the emission was vertical, okay? So, you see how the hypothesis follows the evidence where it leads in 27 different ways, and I just mentioned two of them. That is fascinating. It is fascinating. So, a broader question. Because you spent so much of your life devoted to this, and we just talked about the proper approach to science. So, say, basically, what is implied by all this study, and you said, you know, you really believe that this is Jesus' burial cloth, and this is the image of Jesus, and the Shroud of Turin, gone by different names, and maybe it has kind of been lost to modern society, that even the awareness of it, I guess.

So, one, what does it? What then follows if this actually is Jesus' burial cloth, and the process meant that he, as we know, the resurrection of the dead in the Bible, what does that mean if this is proven, is real? And then two, what do you think a proliferation to a larger audience as to that truth would mean for...

People around the world, and you could say Christianity, but just people in general, to be made aware of this truth. Yes, this has worldwide implications, because this applies to the nature of reality, where a human body is possible.

To disappear from our perception of reality. Now, the truth of Christianity has always rested on the resurrection of Jesus, and that's exactly what I'm saying. So, what I believe took place here, in our modern scientific process of discovery, It leads back to the existence of God and the reality of Jesus' resurrection in multiple different senses, that the universe, time, space, and matter of our reality came into existence at a certain point in time, just as Genesis 1-1 says.

So that we can learn about reality, we can learn about the nature of God from Genesis 1-1, and from all of science, and so that as Romans says, that we can know God from what he has created, so that I think as the scientific endeavor continues to show us more and more about reality, And the necessity, absolute necessity of information content in our DNA, which controls everything that happens in our body, thus requiring that information cannot occur, information never occurs randomly.

It only occurs from intelligence. That's our entire experience, so that that informs us that humanity was created by God when he inserted that information into the DNA in Adam and Eve's physical makeup. So that, yes, even my cat testifies to me of God's reality. My cat is not just a mass of lifeless organic chemicals on the floor. So, my cat, I have two cats, and they both testify to me of God's existence.

So, not only does my wife, but my cats do. You know, so everything around us, you know, as you look at everything, my bookshelves, my books, all my books, you can see some half of them behind me. The other half is in front of me here. All the information, none of that information was produced by random processes. It's all produced by intelligence.

Now, we should learn something from that. Now, the amount of information in our DNA dwarfs all of the information in all of these books. It dwarfs all of the information in the Library of Congress. It's absolutely astounding how much information is in our DNA. And then, not only do you have the information in our DNA, but built into our system is the machines, nanotechnology machines, to read the information.

You know, what good is a DVD if you don't have the machine to read it? The DVD has the information, but you hold it in your hand, and what does it tell you? What does it show you? Nothing. Until you use the machine to organize that information into a series of pictures, maybe, in a movie or whatever. And we need the, you know, they used to call it a useless material in the DNA. No, that's the machine to read the data.

And so, as technology progresses, we become more and more aware of the necessity of God's existence. Now, another aspect is the fine-tuning of the universe. Have you heard of that? No, what is that? The fine-tuning. That is like, if you had... A million dials across the top of this huge machine, and a million aisles down, and on each dial, you could set it between zero and a million, okay? So, you have a million times a million with a million settings, and for life to exist anywhere in the universe.

Each of those million times a million, with a million settings, each of those has to be set exactly at one location. That is what the fine-tuning of the universe is, so that what they have found, when they go back into, for example, the constants of physics, And you look, you know, why is the gravitational constant the way that it is? Well, if it varied by, you know, a very small fraction one way or another, there'd be no galaxies in the universe.

So, there'd be no life. That's one dial being, have to be set exactly right. Well, they keep finding additional features of our makeup, not only How the constants of physics were chosen. They were chosen intelligently to allow life in the universe, so that you might call that a boundary condition, but there's other boundary conditions as well. You know, the initial temperature, the initial entropy of the universe, etc., etc. That's the fine-tuning of the universe. So, I think what we have here Is a situation where the laws of physics that God initially set up before the foundation of the world included the capability for human bodies to make a transition between alternate dimensions, and that's shown not only In Jesus' resurrection, but also in the appearances and disappearances of his post-resurrection appearances.

For example, when he walked with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, he talked to them. They didn't recognize him, not sure. Maybe they weren't looking at him. Maybe it was raining. Maybe he had his hood on. Who knows?

But they didn't recognize him until they sat down, and he broke the bread, thus exposing the wounds in his wrists. Now, it's often pictured that the nails went through his palms, because the Bible said that the nails went into his hands.

Not realizing that in Jewish culture, the hand was down to the midpoint, usually about there, so that if the nails went through here, they wouldn't hold the body because there's no bone structure above it. There's just cartilage. So, experiments have been done. Each arm would support 62 pounds, but with two arms, that wouldn't support a 175-pound man.

Which is the estimated weight based upon the Shroud of Turin. So that all the paintings in the Middle Ages that show this get it wrong. The Shroud of Turin shows this through the wrist at a little bit of an angle. The Shroud gets it right. There's a location there where it can go through that location and not break any bones, thus fulfilling the prophecy in Isaiah.

That no bone will be broken. Okay? The shroud gets it right. All the paintings from the Middle Ages get it wrong. I'm sorry, but they do. So, that indicates that the shroud is true. Okay, because the shard is not a product of the Middle Ages, because they put the nail wound right there. Oh, yeah, right. Okay, also, when the nail goes through here, that's exactly, and goes into that location where it doesn't break any bones, the feelings of the nerves from the feelings of all the hand are focused down into a nerve that goes right through that location, so the nail going through there crushes it.

...automatically folding the thumb over, and all the paintings from the Middle Ages prominently show the thumbs getting it wrong, but the Shroud of Turin gets it right with the thumbs folded under. Both of those indicate that the Shroud of Turin is the authentic burial cloth of Jesus, so that when I take the National Geographic into the young man and he says, That's Jesus!

It's understandable. Are you starting to understand the power of this? No, no, therefore, therefore, what you conclude, you must conclude, based on the scientific evidence of how the images were formed, and the carbon dating, that resurrection... Is possible because it has happened. And what does the Bible say about us and our future?

That our bodies will eventually be reunited in heaven. Yes, yes. Everyone will be resurrected because everyone will bow the knee. And give honor to God, both the godly and the ungodly. Sometimes that's missed by Christians, that even the ungodly will be resurrected now, and they'll both be resurrected for judgment on the basis of their works. But the basis is different. For the believer, his sins have been forgiven, so the judgment is to determine the degree of rewards.

Whereas for the unbeliever, where the sins have not been paid for by Jesus' death on the cross, the judgment is for the degree of punishment. Okay, so that that's why Jesus said, go throughout the world and take this message, because it applies to everyone. And so, the evidence of Jesus' resurrection, both biblically and scientifically, this is the first time in history that Christians, in their apologetics or arguments for God's existence, have scientific evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, based upon the carbon dating of the Shroud of Turin.

Which changes everything. Which changes everything, and that's why, that's why in the Bible, it says at some point in the future, and this will, of course, be after Jesus Christ returned to the earth, that everyone will know of God's existence and of Jesus' resurrection. Everyone will know.

We just have to inform them now and convince them of it. So, that is why the Shroud of Turin has power to it. Now, I did my nuclear calculations in 2014. So, I mentioned before that there were four different evidences for image formation. There is the mean or average date. There is the slope of the carbon date as a function of the distance from the shroud, that the date changes as you progress further and further away from the short end of the cloth.

There is also the basic evidence from the carbon dating. Carbon dates for the subsamples that were dated. So, in 1988, there were three samples that were cut from the shroud, sent to three different laboratories. Those laboratories cut them into smaller pieces. Those would be called the subsamples. So, that there were actually 12 of these smaller pieces, 12 subsamples, that were actually carbon dated. So, we have the range and the distribution of those 12 subsamples. So, we have the mean, we have the slope, we have the range and distribution of the subsamples, and it occurred to me, the fourth item we actually have is the date to the face cloth.

Because in John 20, verse 7 or 8, it talks about the face cloth, or it can be translated head cloth, that was removed from the body while after it was brought into the tomb, laid down on the backside of the cloth, the person doing the burial would reach over, take off the face cloth that was put on after Jesus died while still on the cross that was put on to catch the blood coming out of his nose and his mouth, would have been left on the body, In transport, from the cross to the tomb, and then it would be taken off and laid aside, probably on the right bench.

Most people are right-handed. It wouldn't have been dropped on the floor. That is where you are walking. It wouldn't have been put on the back bench. That is where the body is. It wouldn't have been put on the side walls or the ceiling. No, it would have been put just about even, whereas the person doing the burial, where his arm would drop.

So, that was my prediction, because I knew that the face cloth, talked about in John 20, was carbon-dated three times to an average value of about 700 A.D., and so they said, well, it can't possibly be true, because it's 700 A.D., and I said, well, no, wait a minute. Let's take into account neutron absorption to produce new carbon-14.

So, I said, but my problem is I don't know where the shroud was put. The Bible doesn't tell me, but then I thought, but I can make a good prediction. It would be taken off from the body, and it would just fall on the right bench, because most people are right-handed, about 15 to 18 inches in front of, you know, toward the entrance of the tomb, in front of the back bench.

And that is where I predicted that the shroud would be. So, then I had to go back and rerun a series of calculations, placing linen cloth on the left and the right side benches. And after about a week of analysis and doing the calculations, I finally got the results, and I looked at that location 15 to 18 inches in front of the back bench on the side bench. Guess what the carbon date was that my computer tells me? 700 AD. That tells me I'm doing something right, okay?

When I can make a prediction, And then test it, and it gives me the right answer. I know that I'm doing something right. So, Bob, going forward here, and then one to continue to follow your work is at shroudresearch.net.

Yes. And then, you are actually going to be presenting at a conference, I believe, coming up, of a lot of your research. Where is that conference, and when is it? We just completed a conference. This was the first conference in North America in six years. Last one was in Canada in 2019.

Okay. It was a three-and-a-half-day conference in St. Louis, and we had 425 people attend. They could either pay for one day or pay for all three-and-a-half days. And so… We had 49 presenters from eight different countries. A big deal, huge deal. And so, I made five different presentations of 50 minutes each. I helped out with a six different presentation.

And so, yes, I made those presentations. I have to get in my documentation on those presentations. By October 15th, they're working on getting the videos onto the Internet so that... All this will be available to people. But yes, I'm one of the main researchers on the Shroud, so that I'm not just repeating things that other people have done and that I've read in books and whatnot. I'm doing original research on this. Right. So, I'm giving my conclusions.

And when these videos are up, where will they be available? Will it be also on ShroudResearch.net? The website is... www.shroud2025conference.com. That's the website for the conference that was held. Okay, so now on my website, maybe I'll redirect to that.

Okay, and then if people want to continue to support your work, is that the best way to do it? Go check out the website or how else can they help? Well, become familiar with the Shroud and then... I'd like to make presentations at universities or churches or any site, really. But, for example, one lady who had started a shroud museum in her church in Ann Arbor, Michigan, ...invited me to come on the second anniversary of their museum to make a presentation as to current status of research and whatnot, and that was Sunday night, and then on Monday, she set me up at University of Michigan, so that was especially nice to be able to speak at the University of Michigan.

I've already spoken at the University of Dallas, Catholic University, And had an overflow crowd there, so we're trying to get set up to speak there again. So, other locations would be at the three different locations where carbon dating was done in 1988. I want to speak at the University of Arizona, down in Turin, in Tucson, for example. And I want to speak in Rome, I want to speak in Turin, where the Shroud is located, etc. So that this knowledge... You know, it has to be accepted and understood, and we need to do additional testing aloud, so that my two main objections are to solve the mysteries of the Shroud, and to do additional testing aloud.

And to do that, I have to finish my nuclear calculations. They are not quite done yet, because in saying these four different things, the mean, the slope, the range and distribution, and the carbon dating of the face cloth, number three I did not complete in 2014. I am working on that now, because when they cut them into the smaller samples, it makes them smaller. Harder to model and requiring longer runs to get data that was adequate. So, in my first iteration on this, I ran the calculations on my quad-core computer 20 days.

I ran 2 to 3 trillion neutrons, following them one at a time. In order to get good enough data that I was satisfied with. So, these are more difficult calculations. Well, I want to do another iteration to kind of change some of the things in order to optimize things a little bit better, because that is the process of science when you are trying to solve A phenomenon, you have a series of evidences related to that phenomenon, and then you try, in your calculations, hopefully you can develop a system of calculations, where you can modify things in order to simulate the evidence as closely as possible, and that will then be your hypothesis.

So, that is the process that I am going through now. That is excellent. So, if people want to book you for their university, say they are listening, they are in college, shroudresearch.net, what is the best way? Well, you can go to my YouTube. Well, you can do shroudresearch.net. My email is robertarucker at yahoo.com. My middle initial is A. Robert A. Rucker, R-U-C-K-E-R. Okay. Excellent. Everyone go do their, everyone get over there and support them. I had a fantastic time, Bob. Thank you so much for your time.

Yes, it is a fascinating subject, isn't it? It sure is. This has expanded my mind so far beyond what I thought was possible. So, in other words, this is what gives you right and wrong to live by. Because God does exist, and He defines what right and wrong is. Otherwise, you're left with the question, who says? If you can answer, God says, that's a good answer. Right.

Yeah, absolutely. And it gives you significance in life. Like Ecclesiastes said, vanity of vanities, all is vanity without God. What is the purpose of life? You have purpose in life when you acknowledge that God exists. And I'm sorry for people who reject God, because they've just thrown out any possibility of having real significance in life, because you end up at the end of life when you're on your deathbed, and you say, What was it all about? Yeah, I had a big house, I had a nice car, I had a boat, I had vacations all over the world, but so what?

It doesn't mean anything. It's just vanity, unless you live by God's expectations and to glorify Him. That gives you eternal purpose. You have to have something that's eternal. So, when you believe that when you die, you're just dead like a dog in the street, you have no significance. You have no possibility of eternal significance.

But when you believe in the resurrection, that your soul survives the death of the body, which is really this foundation of the Christian worldview that founded this country, when you believe that your soul exists beyond the death of your body, so that their right and wrong count, Because God judges the intents of the heart. See how important this is? I do. Yeah. Just amazing.

It really is. And it comes down to how you live, how you interact with people around you. It comes down to how you vote, doesn't it? It sure does. It sure does. Absolutely. Absolutely. Bob, thank you so much for the time, and everyone go check him out. Yes, very good.